…

DISPUTANT
Until I have perfect understanding of an event, I will trust God’s Word as truth.

AUTHOR 1TP
Are you implying that once you have “perfect understanding” of natural phenomena, you no longer need to look to Scripture for support? If you are waiting “until I have perfect understanding of an event” then you have no chance of understanding anything. No human has “perfect understanding,” whatever that means.

DISPUTANT
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. All truth is God’s truth.

AUTHOR 1TP
But what is Truth??

DISPUTANT
Science is not a bad methodology, it is just sometimes badly applied.

AUTHOR 1TP
So are you saying that science can discover truth?

DISPUTANT
Truth is the absolute reality independent of man’s opinion.

AUTHOR 1TP
Or that Truth is Science? And what is “reality”?

DISPUTANT
Science is a systematic methodology of doing research. Reality is what actually exists, even without man in the picture. Any tool is only as good as the person using it.

AUTHOR 1TP
The fact is that science can never discover truth. Scientists do not even know what “truth” means. And since no person is perfect, no person can ever discover truth.

DISPUTANT
God’s Word is truth.

AUTHOR 1TP
But my question is WHAT IS TRUTH?? Your answer must begin with the words:- “TRUTH IS …”

DISPUTANT
Our inability does not define the truth. “Truth is the absolute reality independent of man’s opinion.” You’re chasing your own tail.

OBSERVER A
John 17:17

AUTHOR 1TP
You are giving me the Correspondence Theory of truth.
1- That is not a definition of truth.
2- The correspondence theory is fatally flawed.
That is not the definition of “truth.”

DISPUTANT
It’s my definition.

AUTHOR 1TP
John 17:17 does NOT give us a definition of Truth.

DISPUTANT
Your comments are only worth the words stated.

AUTHOR 1TP
Your “definition” is Not a definition.

DISPUTANT
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
No one can define a conundrum paradox.

AUTHOR 1TP
But What is Truth??
You are assuming that you know what Truth means!!
So far I can see that you do not know the meaning of Truth.

DISPUTANT
Truth and reality lie outside man’s capability to comprehend. Trust God’s Word as truth. What man calls “knowledge” is a personal collection of beliefs based on trusted authority and expertise. Knowledge is not equivalent to reality. AUTHOR 1TP appears to have “truth” in a box of his own making.

OBSERVER B
On the truth.....”truth and reality are beyond the scope of human ability.” … Is this really true?
We attempt to deny truth, and by doing so we on some level affirm it. This leads me to the conclusion, Truth is imposed upon us.

AUTHOR 1TP
Humans cannot know truth until God decides to give it to us. Truth is knowledge of God. Nothing else.

OBSERVER H
Is that? true? How do you know?

AUTHOR 1TP
There is Only T truth. Only Christians know truth. If you do not acknowledge Christ as Lord you do not know Any truth at all.

OBSERVER D
Jesus is Truth

AUTHOR 1TP
“I am the truth” -Christ. What do you think Jesus meant by “truth”?

OBSERVER B
Truth is the world as God sees it. He has given us the ability to perceive through our senses... this is true Christian or not. However because of our fallen nature we lack the moral fortitude to acknowledge it, and arrive at correct conclusions.

AUTHOR 1TP
... And since God sees everything, then is everything true?? Our sensations can never discover truth. First we need to know what truth is. A fallen universe cannot contain truth.

OBSERVER D
Truth was born into this fallen universe just over 2,000 years ago in a stable.

DISPUTANT
That’s nonsense. Truth is that which actually exists, it has nothing to do with fallen nature.

AUTHOR 1TP
Truth comes from God. It does not exist in a fallen creation.

DISPUTANT
If truth has fallen then nothing is true, not even God.
While God is a source of truth, truth exists independent of man or God.
Truth is merely that which actually exists.

AUTHOR 1TP
I didn’t say truth has fallen. The creation is fallen.
Truth cannot fall nor can it be about Fallen creation.

DISPUTANT
If a tree falls in the forest, has it truly fallen or do you have to consult with God?

AUTHOR 1TP
Define what is a tree.

DISPUTANT
Why?

AUTHOR 1TP
Your question requires that you know what a tree is.

DISPUTANT
I still think you are confusing knowledge with truth.

OBSERVER K
Jesus was here.

AUTHOR 1TP
Yes exactly. He is uncreated. Not a part of the fallen creation. Truth must be revealed. It cannot be discovered.

OBSERVER L
So you think Christians are dumb?
Who was Edison? Was He Dumb? Was he a Christian?
Who was Newton? Was He Dumb? Was he a Christian?
Who was Kepler? Was He Dumb? Was He a Christian?
Who was Kelvin? Was He Dumb? Was He a Christian?
Who was Lister? Was He Dumb? Was He a Christian?
In 1973, Werner Heisenberg, a Christian and the father of Quantum Physics, gave a speech before accepting the Romano Guardini Prize for his paper “Scientific and Religious Truth.” He spoke of the relationship of the two truths. A famous quote of his: “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

AUTHOR 1TP
Christ is our only source of truth. Not science.

DISPUTANT
Seriously? Science is a systematic method of doing research. Are you being intentionally obtuse? Are you asserting that science has made no true discoveries? Does gravity apply to both the believer and the non-believer alike? God wrote the laws of nature for us to discover. They are consistent and unchanging, to believe otherwise is relativism and foolishness.

AUTHOR 1TP
Nothing in science is true or can be true. Laws of nature are men’s guesses. None of them are true. A universe that is in a constant state of flux cannot be described as immutable. Only God is unchangeable. If you have not studied the topic what I say will seem crazy. But it is not.

DISPUTANT
You are a fraud posing as a Christian to defame Christians.

AUTHOR 1TP
You must be reminded that gravity is a result of human imagination. The Bible says nothing about gravity.

OBSERVER E
True

OBSERVER I
Lots of unproven assertions going on in here.

DISPUTANT
God made us rational and provided the laws of logic to aid us in our thinking. AUTHOR 1TP has stated that: “Nothing in science is true or can be true.” How many Christians here agree with him?

OBSERVER J
I love science, when they don’t push errors.

DISPUTANT
God said “let us reason together” and how could we reason without the ability to discern truth?

AUTHOR 1TP
Logic can never lead anyone to truth. Being logical does not guarantee that one will arrive at truth. Knowing the laws of logic does not mean that one knows truth. When was the last time anyone reasoned with God?

OBSERVER B
The problem is you arrived at that conclusion with logic.

AUTHOR 1TP
Yes. Logic is useful but not true. All “laws” of science are untrue but useful. Laws of logic are idealizations.

OBSERVER B
“Come now let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet, they will be washed white as snow.”

AUTHOR 1TP
Wonderful.

OBSERVER B
No you are mistaken. Logic is logic and idealization is Idealization. Or else THIS becomes THAT and language is not possible. To assert such a thing is hypocrisy.

DISPUTANT
“Laws of logic are idealizations.” then you disagree with the law of non-contradiction? I suspect that  AUTHOR 1TP is a troll, here to misrepresent Christians.

OBSERVER B
You are justifying all your points with either, assertions which are no better than all others, or reasoning, which you discredit, albeit with.......reason? This confuses me.

DISPUTANT
AUTHOR 1TP stated: “Logic is useful but not true.” Let’s all laugh in unison.

OBSERVER B
And immediately the law of identity. Which is absolutely fundamental for stringing together a sentence. i.e. undeniable!

AUTHOR 1TP
Thank you for mentioning the law of identity. Can you point me to anything that is immutable in this universe? By the way. When I say “Untrue” I do not mean “False.”

OBSERVER B
“All those who deny non-contradiction deserve to be beaten and burned..... until they are willing to admit its not the same as not being beaten and burned.”- Muslim Proverb

AUTHOR 1TP
There are no two things in this world that are complete contradictories.  The law of non-contradiction is an unattainable ideal.

DISPUTANT
The laws of logic are immutable. You sir, live in a state of confusion.

OBSERVER B
Is that true or untrue or even false? I’m confused. But when we alter the definitions of words, it gets out of hand.

AUTHOR 1TP
That would mean that the laws of logic are identical with God.  Is that what you want to teach?

DISPUTANT
Relativism does not answer to reality. God’s character can be known by observing the universe.

AUTHOR 1TP
The universe is a relative place. You cannot make a single immutable proposition about anything in creation.

OBSERVER C
Self refuting you just made an immutable proposition about creation.

AUTHOR 1TP
You are confusing the terms “about anything IN creation” with “about creation.”

An example of the former:- “All swans are white.”
A statement based on limited observation=Induction=Invalid conclusion.
i.e. No proposition of science can ever be valid.

An example of the latter:- The universe is fallen.
A statement based upon revelation=deduction=valid conclusion.
i.e. All propositions of Scripture are valid.

The former is referring to propositions about Individual parts of the universe.
The latter is making a statement about the Universe as a Whole.
Two different subject classes.

DISPUTANT
Truth/reality is an absolute unchanging immutable fact.

AUTHOR 1TP
Truth is in nowhere but in Christ. Truth= God who can be known only thru Christ. Anything else is heresy.

OBSERVER B
What you’re saying is incoherent and hypocritical. You disdain principals. You simultaneously espouse..... HYPOCRISY.

DISPUTANT
It’s true that God is always truth, but what we see and experience can also be true.

AUTHOR 1TP
No it cannot be. Truth is God. Not a fallen creation.

DISPUTANT
AUTHOR 1TP is a troll intent on defaming Christians while posing as one.

AUTHOR 1TP
Deal with issues not personalities.

DISPUTANT
If truth could not exist, then God could not exist.

OBSERVER B
You realize anything you say in this category you may think sounds intelligent, but it’s just absurdity.

AUTHOR 1TP
Where did I say that truth could not exist?!

DISPUTANT
Are you sure of anything, and how? You reason according to the laws of logic and the God of nature.

AUTHOR 1TP
I am sure of one thing only. Jesus Christ is Lord and God. Logic is needed by man not by God.

OBSERVER B
EVEN A FALLEN CREATION IS STIIIILLLLL A FAAAAALLEN CREEEAAATTTTIIIIOOON!!!!!!! NON CONTRADICTION !!!!! AND IDENTITY!!!! What you are discrediting!

DISPUTANT
He’s a troll, but he serves a purpose here. Who wrote the laws of logic? How can they apply to all cultures throughout time? We are created in God’s own image, and that includes our rational intelligent mind. But, I can’t say the same for atheists and evolutionists.

OBSERVER B
HYPOCRISY. This will always be this and that will always be that. Or the language you are using is not possible. Yet....you continue to use it, Hypocrisy. If you truly believe your position stop believing your language is immutable and STOP TALKING. I cannot understand anymore what’s on this page. From the time people write their post, until the time I receive it, language mutates and doesn’t make any sense. Therefore if you can still understand me, I’m out of here. This is futile.

AUTHOR 1TP
There are many kinds of logic. Which one did God give to us?

The laws of logic are purely formal[…] They are principles of procedure, the parliamentary rules of intelligent thought and speech. […] Those who suppose that there is, for example, a logic which everyone would agree to if he understood it and understood himself, are more optimistic than those versed in the history of logical discussion have a right to be. The fact is that there are several logics, markedly different, each self-consistent in its own terms and such that whoever using it, if he avoids false premises, will never reach false conclusions.
C. I. Lewis; (1883-1964); A Pragmatic Conception of the a priori; 1923

OBSERVER C
And you quote the great old earth evolutionist.

AUTHOR 1TP
What does that have to do with it?  It does not mean that all he did was worthless.  He was a great logician.

OBSERVER C
Great logician. His statement is self defeating if not self refuting. He must suppose everyone will accept his logic or his proposition cant make any $0.02. So if you agree with him he is right and if I disagree with him he is right. Its circular nonsense.

AUTHOR 1TP
The nature and purpose of logic is a complicated issue. If you have not studied it, it is going to sound self-defeating, but it is not. Unfortunately Christian philosophers have not done a good job so far in explicating its nature. My favorite philosopher, Gordon Clark, really dropped the ball on this topic.

Non-Christian philosophers have been interested in it because they wanted to find truth in math and logic, i.e. anywhere other than God! They were fearless investigators, but reluctantly and grudgingly they came to admit that there is no truth in math or logic.

I know that there are Christians who think that there must be truth in creation, but they are fatally mistaken. I was one of them, since I always thought that math must come from God and must be truth.

Christ is our only source of Truth. If you propose that there is truth in anything or anyone other than Christ, you are actually shifting attention away from Christ and toward error.

AUTHOR 1TP
If you are interested in the nature of logic, please visit my website.
http://truth-defined.com/NoTruthInLogic.htm

OBSERVER C
I actually read your website not all of it, but definitely the definition of truth and other stuff. I have to agree with you and your definition of Truth. We can know some Truth and any Truth we know is part of Gods character or being. I think where we part ways in belief. That Truth must include any logic that is true. And anything else that is true. You yourself use coherency and argumentation and correspondence and logic.

AUTHOR 1TP
Laws of logic are not true, BUT useful. Just as no law of science can be true, but some of it is useful.

“[…] however useful scientific laws are, they cannot be true.”
Gordon Clark; (1902-1985); A Christian View of Men & Things; 1952/1981; p209

Whatever we think we know about the creation cannot be true. Nature is fallen, our minds are fallen, and we are not omniscient. Our senses were given to us to be able to deal with the difficulties that we encounter in this material world, but they can never attain truth thru observation or testing (=science).

“[…] there is no law in nature, because nature is fallen and cannot be normative. Moreover, the source of law is not nature but God. There is no law in nature, but a law over nature, God’s law.”
Rousas Rushdoony; The Institutes of Biblical Law; 1973

AUTHOR 1TP
In my opinion Gordon Clark did the best job of putting the then current philosophy of science into a Christian context. I don’t think he introduced any new philosophy, but his work for Christians is very valuable. Contemporary Christian philosophers do not have the depth and breadth of knowledge that Clark had, and have next to nothing to offer the Christian in his struggle against scientism and all its insidious tentacles.

OBSERVER C
“The laws of logic are not true.” Is this revelation or did you reason this?

AUTHOR 1TP
Humans reluctantly agreeing with:-
2Ti 3:7 … always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It took over 2500 years for men to discover that neither math nor logic contained truth. There are virtually infinite types of math and logic. “Laws” of logic are conventions which we agree upon so that we can have meaningful conversations. They cannot be true because they are idealizations.

The first “law” of logic, on which all the other “laws” of logic rest, is the “law” of Identity. “P is P”

Here is the problem:- there is nothing in creation that is identical to itself, because everything is in a constant state of mutation. With a little contemplation a Christian will see that man is trying to find an immutable something in a fallen creation when the only immutable “thing” that exists is God Himself. The pagan is trying to replace God with his own invention, whether that is math, science or logic. The rest of the “laws” of logic collapse under the weight of the non-existence of the first “law.”

But we cannot function without assuming that the first “law” is valid, but must admit that we go on knowing that our assumption of “P is P” is an unrealizable ideal. We must SIN every time we use logic. Just as when we use math, we always break the regulations that we ourselves have stipulated.

We must always add UNLIKES (1apple +1 apple= 2 apples, etc.) in violation of all mathematical regulations, because we know that we can never have two identical apples. We lie to ourselves, we SIN, every time we do math.

Truth comes only from God. Truth cannot come from a fallen world.

OBSERVER C
It was a simple question. Honestly if you use logic and reason and tell me logic is not true, everything you say becomes unintelligible. Did you just say we must sin every time we use logic? How do you expect anyone to believe this nonsense. When you state its not true?

AUTHOR 1TP
Know Christ, Know Truth.
No Christ, No truth,
even if you know everything there is to know about creation.

DISPUTANT
2+2=4 for Christians and atheists alike.

AUTHOR 1TP
2+2=4 is never true in real life. There are NO four identical things in this world. All of math deals with non-existent impossibilities that we call numbers.

The non-Christian does NOT know ANY truth at all. That is what separates the Christian from the non-Christian, the possession of Truth=Christ.

“[…] it is hard to point one’s finger at the […] number three […] Similarly no one has ever seen a line, or a triangle.”
Gordon Clark; Logic; 1988; p27

OBSERVER B
Dhfucgdgwjskdjffj, djfjfjdjs!!!!

OBSERVER A
Observer B, you need to get your typewriter fixed.

OBSERVER B
All his arguments utilize logic to prove it’s not truuu.... rhcjdjdbdhdjsbdchshx!!!!!&:&637&;&;&!.($(:&

AUTHOR 1TP
There are No perfectly sharp knives in this world. A knife does not have to be perfectly sharp to be useful.

OBSERVER B
Proving a point, the other guy isn’t catching on to any earlier point. dgfhfbdishdbcbxhsbdbxhxbdbx!

Case and point BUT YET WE STILL KNOW WHAT A COTTON PICKING APPLE IS!!!!!!
HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!!

What if an apple is anything that falls within a certain range of size, shape, taste and color. So yes, a thing crazy as it may seem can be classified as falling in a range. I can’t believe I’m doing this. This so fundamental, it doesn’t warrant my time.

AUTHOR 1TP
We might know what an apple is, (actually it is impossible to completely define anything exactly) but there are not two of them that are exactly alike, and that’s the point. “Falling in a range” might be useful when buying apples, but truth does not “fall in a range.”

OBSERVER B
Since no word is the same the second time you use it and AUTHOR 1TP maintains his hypocrisy. Thdydhfh dhxjsjsjfb djdjxbdbdb shshvfhsisb &)?”:(*)&”*’ &(*(,7&’*?§¿¤¥©<©¥¤£ ¥§#©¥§?©<<© ¥§?§?©¥§£©!!!!!!

AUTHOR 1TP
Know Christ, Know Truth.
No Christ, No truth-
no matter how many apples you think you know.

OBSERVER B
Then we can’t call a spade a spade yet you continue doing that with every dhfhfhsjfv shdbfbdjsbfbdh shfbrvdhsbdb xbdjxbdbzj?§¿§¥©?§¿©¥ ¥©¥>?

AUTHOR 1TP
Where does a spade end and a shovel begin? We have no choice but to give names to objects, but we must not forget that there is nothing unchanging in this world, so we must know that our definitions are fuzzy definitions, just like Fuzzy Logic that is used in many electronic systems, because the world is Fuzzy, unclear, blurry,

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

OBSERVER B
But you are sayings there are no spades and there are no shovels, such a statement takes for granted such things exist which simultaneously you deny...... again hypocrisy.
“Whatever is......is” -Parmenides. I can’t believe someone has the gumption to question such a notion. All such persons are so disingenuous, they cannot be counted on, to concede when their point is rendered moot. So I withdraw from this discussion. I was a fool for re-engaging in this foolishness.

AUTHOR 1TP
I said no such thing!!
You are assuming a definition of truth with which I disagree, and your example of Parmenides’ statement shows that you are advocating the Correspondence Theory of truth, which is fatally flawed. Parmenides, (and Aristotle), were wrong.

True statements can only be about God, because only God is Self-existent, Immutable, Eternal, Spiritual, above the human mind and Not a function of Space, Time or Matter. Truth and God have identical natures, and ONLY Truth and God. And since we can know God only thru Christ, the only True statement available for us at the present time is “Jesus is Lord.”

AUTHOR 1TP
“[…] in the doctrine of Augustine, sense cognition is not perfectly safe.
First, its proper function is to warn the soul of some changes that take place in the body rather than to represent to it the nature of things.
Secondly, this nature of material things is itself a changeable one. For these two reasons, no pure truth can be expected from sensations.”
Etienne Gilson; History of Christian Philosophy in the Middle Ages; p75

DISPUTANT
and on and on and on....
btw, epistemology is the study of knowledge, not truth. Knowledge is a subjective process, having nothing to do with reality and truth.

AUTHOR 1TP
Alethiology is the study of the nature of truth.
The goal of knowledge is Truth.
Knowledge of a fallen creation is subjective, but Knowledge of God is Truth (=everlasting life) it is not subjective and it is a gift of God.

DISPUTANT
What we refer to as “knowledge” is a personal collection of beliefs, based on authority more than reason.

AUTHOR 1TP
All knowledge is acquired thru Faith.
The object of faith in Science is Matter.
The object of faith in History is Man.
The object of faith in Revelation is God.
Only God is capable of giving us truth, which is knowledge of HIMSELF!

DISPUTANT
“Alethiology” is a branch of logic.

AUTHOR 1TP
Different philosophers categorize it differently. It makes no difference.

DISPUTANT
Then you make no difference. You’re just another philosopher that no one should listen to.

AUTHOR 1TP
I do not make a difference. All I am trying to do is point others to CHRIST!!
I am pointing Christians to Christ, whom they have relegated to the back of the room, behind science, math and logic. When anyone says that there is truth outside of Christ, that is exactly what they are doing, placing knowledge of Christ on the same or lower level than science, math or logic.

DISPUTANT
alethiology:
noun
1.the branch of logic dealing with truth and error.

AUTHOR 1TP
Logic does not deal with truth. Alethiology stands above them all. True knowledge must be eternal and immutable, thus it can be about God Only.

DISPUTANT
So there is no truth in science or logic?

AUTHOR 1TP
There is NO truth in science or logic. They do not deal with God. The only true statements can be about God Only.

DISPUTANT
Is there truth in medical science? Is medicine useful at all?

AUTHOR 1TP
Medicine is very useful, but none of it is true.
Math is very useful, but none of it is true.
Science is very useful, but none of it is true.
Logic is very useful, but none of it is true.

DISPUTANT
You’re spouting relativism, not absolute objective truth.

AUTHOR 1TP
You are directing people to idols:- math, science, medicine and logic, which are in no way sources of “absolute objective truth.”

DISPUTANT
How then are those fields of knowledge useful? How is math useful if it is false?

AUTHOR 1TP
I did not say math is false. I said math is not true. An idea does not have to be true to be useful, just as a saw does not have to be perfectly sharp to cut wood. Numbers are human inventions. They do not exist. They are useful to count and measure, but do not exist.

DISPUTANT
The universe is a real place with real physical laws that govern it.

AUTHOR 1TP
No “law” of science can be true or is true, yet we can get to the moon and back! The “laws” you speak of are man-made, none of them are valid. But some of them are useful.

DISPUTANT
And that doesn’t raise a red flag in your theory?

AUTHOR 1TP
What do you mean?

DISPUTANT
To go to the moon and back the “numbers” have to function correctly.

AUTHOR 1TP
We don’t need to know, nor can we know, the way the world REALLY works, to be able to achieve all that we have achieved.
But no numbers ever “function correctly.” We are always fiddling with the dials.

DISPUTANT
Were you taught these beliefs or did you conceive of them?

AUTHOR 1TP
I have studied the nature of knowledge and the nature of truth for most of my life, because I wanted to be able to answer those who relied on science for truth, and who were preaching evolution and long ages, especially from Christian pulpits.
When I studied these two topics, I saw that those who forsook the Bible did not have a leg to stand on, and that there is no truth outside of the Bible. I have read hundreds of Christian and pagan philosophers. The honest ones all agree that there is no truth in this universe. Sadly, most Christians do not study these crucial topics.

DISPUTANT
Let’s go back to the moon scenario. If the numbers were not very very close to perfect, we could not have accomplished the mission.

AUTHOR 1TP
Yes, the numbers were good enough, but never perfect. Here is a quote by a respected philosopher, not a Christian:-

“It can even be shown that all theories, including the best, have the same probability, namely zero.”
Karl Popper; (1902-1994); Conjectures & Refutations; 1965; p192

What he is saying is that the chance of scientists hitting upon a correct law of science is Zero. One out of Infinity. He is correct. We can study “nature” forever and we would never arrive at truth about anything in creation. Here is a quote by my favorite Christian philosopher:-

“The particular law that the scientist announces to the world is not a discovery forced on him by so-called facts; it is rather a choice from among an infinity of laws all of which enjoy the same experimental basis. […] The scientist wants mathematical accuracy; and when he cannot discover it, he makes it. […] however useful scientific laws are, they cannot be true.”
Gordon Clark; (1902-1985); A Christian View of Men & Things; 1952/1981; p209

DISPUTANT
Isa: 1:18 ““Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,” God expects man to be able to reason with Him according to logic.
This verse is not speaking to “Christians” but to the lost.

AUTHOR 1TP
How is a pagan going to “reason” with God?

DISPUTANT
Read the verse yourself and tell me to who is he speaking. “though your sins be as scarlet...”

AUTHOR 1TP
I know the verse by heart, I need to see if you understand what God is trying to get at.

DISPUTANT
And it doesn’t say “they are as white as snow, it says “they shall be white as snow” future tense. The verse is talking to the lost and urging them to reason with Him.

AUTHOR 1TP
We are getting side-tracked. This verse gives no justification to the idea that logic can lead us to truth, which seems to be your assumption. And do you think a pagan has the capability to reason with God, the Person he is trying to get as far away from as possible?

DISPUTANT
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.” Isaiah 1:18 Every one who comes to God is lost and pagan.

AUTHOR 1TP
Wonderful. But it does not deal with the nature of logic. No one comes to God, God comes to US.

DISPUTANT
Logic is the rules that govern “reason.” God is the author of reason/logic.

AUTHOR 1TP
If you want to know the nature and purpose of logic, please read the Hans Hahn article on my website. His work is of inestimable value to help us understand the Nature and Purpose of logic.

DISPUTANT
We are made in His “intelligent reasonable” image. I do understand.

AUTHOR 1TP
‘We are made in His “intelligent reasonable” image.’ Where is that in the Bible? If you understood the nature of logic, you would not keep insisting that it is a source of truth.

DISPUTANT
I do understand.
log•ic1
NOUN
reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity:
“experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic” •
synonyms: reasoning • line of reasoning • rationale • argument •
a system or set of principles underlying the arrangements of elements in a computer or electronic device so as to perform a specified task.

God is the author of the laws of logic.

AUTHOR 1TP
The nature of logic cannot be found in a dictionary. Don’t blame logic on God. He has nothing to do with it. Which logic are you talking about? There are potentially infinite kinds of logic.

DISPUTANT
Every culture throughout history has to comply with the universal laws of logic, because they are given to us by God.

AUTHOR 1TP
Please read about logic before you go on. I can’t get into the details. It is far more complicated than you think. In any case, being logical does not guarantee that we have arrived at truth.

DISPUTANT
Is the law of non-contradiction true false?

AUTHOR 1TP
All laws of logic are idealizations. They are neither-true-nor-false.

DISPUTANT
Is the law on non-contradiction true false?

AUTHOR 1TP
Truth is a property of God only.

DISPUTANT
So, by your logic a contradiction can be both true and false.

AUTHOR 1TP
Neither-true-nor-false does not mean that a proposition can be Both True and False. If you know truth, you know God. If you don’t know God, you don’t know truth. All propositions that are about anything other than God, are NEITHER-TRUE-NOR-FALSE.

DISPUTANT
Who created nature? Did God create an inconsistent relative nature without laws?

AUTHOR 1TP
All things in this fallen universe are Relative. There is no truth in a fallen creation. If there are laws, we will NEVER know what they are.

DISPUTANT
You have cut off the limb on which you stand.

AUTHOR 1TP
Our minds were made to KNOW ONLY GOD.

DISPUTANT
Is what you state “true”?

AUTHOR 1TP
I just said above, every proposition other than “Jesus is Lord” is neither-true-nor-false.

DISPUTANT
Can the truth of God be transferred using words?

AUTHOR 1TP
Words are how we usually evoke ideas in each other’s minds.

DISPUTANT
Is it “true” that Jesus is Lord?

AUTHOR 1TP
That proposition is the only Truth available to mankind at the present time. The ONLY one.

DISPUTANT
Can truth only come by revelation or can it be spoken man to man?

AUTHOR 1TP
The truth that Jesus is Lord is revealed to each human whom God has chosen. We can repeat it to others, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit to apply it to a person’s mind, if that is the Father’s will.

DISPUTANT
Your limb is growing shorter and shorter. Is the name of God “I am”?

AUTHOR 1TP
The name of God is NOT “I AM.” The only name given among men by which we must be saved is “Jesus.”

DISPUTANT
So there is no God the Father?

AUTHOR 1TP
God is in three persons. We do not know the name of the first and third persons of the trinity. We have been given the name of the second person only= Jesus

DISPUTANT
Why even have the Bible if it cannot be read as truth in any language of man?

AUTHOR 1TP
Because it tells us about how God is dealing with the rebel called man.

DISPUTANT
Exodus 3:14 “God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’“

AUTHOR 1TP
We are saved by coming to know who Jesus is. We are not saved by any other words in the Bible. I AM is a title. It is not a name. God specifically did NOT tell his personal name to Moses.

DISPUTANT
How many actual words in the Bible are true?

AUTHOR 1TP
“Jesus Christ is Lord.” If you know that, you have received everlasting life, which is defined as knowing the True God. It is the only Eternal Proposition in the Bible.

DISPUTANT
Jesus Christ is a title. Jesus means Savior, and Christ means the “anointed” one. And those are Greek words.

AUTHOR 1TP
Jesus is a NAME. It is a Proper Name, referring to a unique person. The angels brought that name from God. It is very troubling to me that you would call YHWH a name, yet you would call Jesus a Title in light of the importance that that Name is given in the New Testament!!

DISPUTANT
Jesus is a Greek word meaning “Savior.”

AUTHOR 1TP
Most names have meanings, but they do not have to have meanings. In the case of Jesus, His name has a meaning. Titles have to have meanings. A title cannot be a meaningless word.

DISPUTANT
Are written words a source of truth?

AUTHOR 1TP
“Jesus” is the name of a person, the second person of the trinity.

DISPUTANT
Your limb is almost gone.

AUTHOR 1TP
The only true words that we have been given is:- Jesus Christ is Lord.

DISPUTANT
Are written words a source of truth?

AUTHOR 1TP
God is the only possible source of truth.

OBSERVER M
Jehovah is God’s name. Jesus means Jehovah saves.

AUTHOR 1TP
In the Old Testament, there is no distinction made between “name” and “title.” The name of God was not revealed until Jesus came.
Jehovah is not God’s name, because if it was:-
1- The Jews would have known God’s name and would have been saved; because knowing God’s name is knowing an eternally true proposition, which is everlasting life.
2- It would mean that there is more than ONE name given among men by which we must be saved, in contradiction to Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
3- “YHWH” is not a name but a moniker.

DISPUTANT
Psalm 119:160 “All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.”

AUTHOR 1TP
Words are tools to evoke ideas in our minds. They are not of themselves sources of truth.

DISPUTANT
I didn’t make the claim, God did.

AUTHOR 1TP
The Bible uses the word Truth mostly in the colloquial sense just as we all do every day. I am dealing with the narrow meaning of the word.

DISPUTANT
John 17:17 King James Version (KJV) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

AUTHOR 1TP
But what is truth??

DISPUTANT
Perhaps a little too narrow for you to stand on.

AUTHOR 1TP
Don’t worry, I am standing on the Truth, it is you who are advocating empiricism. The sole source of Truth is God, Not our sensations.
If you do not know the correct meaning of the word Truth, then you have not really understood that verse.

DISPUTANT
Pontius Pilate did not know what truth was but Jesus told him who truth was.

AUTHOR 1TP
Jesus did not tell Pilate who truth was. Jesus did not answer Pilate’s question.

DISPUTANT
Intelligence and language are gifts of God. When Adam was created he was able to talk with God in the garden.

AUTHOR 1TP
I agree.

DISPUTANT
John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

AUTHOR 1TP
What did Jesus mean when He said “I am the truth”??

DISPUTANT
Where did intelligence come from if not God?

AUTHOR 1TP
We are saved when we are given the gift of faith to accept Christ as Lord. Not any other way. What separates the saved from the pagan is possession of Truth.

DISPUTANT
Did man invent speech and reason, or were they created with Adam?

AUTHOR 1TP
Our mental abilities are God given. I have no quarrel with God given ability to think. That has got nothing to do with the nature of truth. Reason can never lead us to truth. If it did, the smartest people would be the greatest Christians, but they usually are not. It is exactly because Reason can never discover truth that Jesus came down to reveal the Truth=Himself.

DISPUTANT
So truth and falsehood are inventions of man. How could Satan be the Father of Lies if lies do not exist?

AUTHOR 1TP
I see that you have not understood a word I have said.

DISPUTANT
“Come let us reason together saith the Lord” “Reason can never lead us to truth.”

AUTHOR 1TP
Satan is the father of lies, his job is to preach THE LIE. If the only truth is “Jesus is Lord” then its negation is THE LIE.
“Jesus is Lord” = Truth
“Jesus is NOT Lord” = Falsehood= THE LIE
All other propositions by humans are Neither-true-Nor-False.

DISPUTANT
Your words have no meaning or truth. Meaning and truth can only come by revelation of God?? So why have a Bible?

AUTHOR 1TP
The Bible gives us the history of God’s dealing with man. A person can know the whole Bible by heart, and still be a pagan.
Truth can come ONLY from God. Words with meanings can be created by man any time they want.

DISPUTANT
Does God give revelations in dreams and visions, but not in written words?

AUTHOR 1TP
God has given revelations by dreams and visions. The only true proposition available to mankind is “Jesus is Lord.” Believing and knowing that is God’s gift, leading to everlasting life. Knowing and believing in anything else in the Bible does not give us everlasting life.

DISPUTANT
So, no other words in the Bible are “true.”

AUTHOR 1TP
Not when Truth is defined as knowledge of God. Believing that David was King of Israel does not do me any eternal good. Believing that Jesus is Lord is the difference between Heaven and Hell. There is a significant difference between these two propositions even though they both exist in the Bible.

DISPUTANT
If a person read the entire Bible, but not “Jesus is Lord” could they be saved by those remaining words?

AUTHOR 1TP
Absolutely NOT. “Jesus, the only name given among men by which we must be saved.” “Call on the name of the Lord....”

DISPUTANT
Why then even have those other words?

AUTHOR 1TP
I have already answered that more than once.

DISPUTANT
You’ve edited the Bible down to three words.

AUTHOR 1TP
The most important three words. Do you think that there is any other way to be saved?

DISPUTANT
Is it necessary to know that one is a sinner to be saved? Is repentance necessary for salvation?

AUTHOR 1TP
No. That realization comes later, when the person sees who he really is in comparison to Christ.

DISPUTANT
All that is necessary is “Jesus is Lord” your own words.

AUTHOR 1TP
If repentance could lead to salvation, then Muslims would all be saved. It is Knowledge of Christ that saves, not repentance. Jesus is Lord is an eternally true proposition. When we believe and acquire that knowledge, we become attached to the Vine that is Jesus.

DISPUTANT
So repentance is NOT necessary for salvation?

AUTHOR 1TP
Who are you repenting to?? Repentance for sins assumes that you are accepting Christ as Lord. If you only repent, and do not accept Christ as Lord, you are headed straight to hell.

DISPUTANT
“No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3

AUTHOR 1TP
Repenting for what, and to WHOM??

DISPUTANT
Then repentance must come before the Lordship of Christ? Of what is right. First one must know of their sins before they can repent.

AUTHOR 1TP
If you are repenting to anyone other than Christ, it is of no use. The realization of sinfulness comes after knowing who the Holy God is. Muslims repent of their sins every day, are they saved??

DISPUTANT
Can one be saved without repentance? Can a person make Christ the Lord of their life without first repenting?

AUTHOR 1TP
We need to repent every day. We live in sin every day of our lives. The reason we are saved is not because we become sinless, it is because we have accepted Christ as Lord.

DISPUTANT
Can we keep our sins and make Christ our Lord?

AUTHOR 1TP
We have no choice but to sin in this life. Just because we do not indulge in prostitution does not mean that we are free of sin. Christ saves even murderers, liars, thieves, pridefuls and gossips. Salvation does not depend on whether we sin or not. Salvation is a gift that depends SOLELY on God’s Grace.

DISPUTANT
“Salvation does not depend on whether we sin or not.” Bad theology.

AUTHOR 1TP
But if a person who continues to claim to be a Christian and is unrepentant of a serious sin in his life, then I can begin to doubt whether he is saved. In that case I would not want that person to serve in a responsible position in a church. When was the last time you did anything that was perfect? There is not a single moment in our lives when we do not sin. We live in cursed bodies and have cursed minds.

DISPUTANT
Why does the Bible contain words other than “Jesus is Lord”?

AUTHOR 1TP
No comment.

AUTHOR 1TP
If you want to know more about the nature of truth, there is no better place than www.Truth-Defined.com

DISPUTANT
“The only true words that we have been given is:- Jesus Christ is Lord.” The Bible is “true” from Genesis to Revelation.

AUTHOR 1TP
Know Christ >> Know Truth
No Christ >> No truth

DISPUTANT
God’s Word is truth. From Genesis to Revelation.

AUTHOR 1TP
I would respond if I knew what you meant by “truth,” but you have not made clear what you mean by the word.

DISPUTANT
Without the knowledge of sin there could be no repentance and without repentance no one can be saved and make Christ Lord of their life. The literal “truth” expressed in Genesis 1-11 is essential to the entire rest of the Bible. Without Genesis and the knowledge of sin, no one could be saved. “Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20
AUTHOR 1TP has certainly demonstrated his “own interpretation”, the question is how can scripture be interpreted if the words have no “true” meaning?

AUTHOR 1TP
You are placing the onus of salvation on the blind and lost sinner who cannot know God until He reveals Himself to man. The responsibility for our salvation is not in our own hands. We are saved by God’s sovereign will, not our own will. The Bible is wholly without error. The reason I cannot classify it as “true” is because a person can believe every word of it, but if they do not believe that “Jesus is Lord,” they cannot be saved. That is the crucial difference between Truth and Inerrant.

DISPUTANT
Does God force salvation on anyone? Yes, God provides the faith but, the decision is still on each individual, whether to choose to accept Christ, or choose to reject him.

AUTHOR 1TP
We are not saved because we repent. We are saved because we are given the faith to believe who Jesus says He is. Salvation is a gift, not a thing that is earned because one repented.

OBSERVER F
“God is not willing that ANY perish, but that all come to eternal life!” Thus God’s sovereign will is revealed. And as the scripture says, “for who can resist His will?” From this we know that none are lost because God’s will is that ALL are saved.
Another Sovereign expression is revealed when Jesus says, “Jerusalem... How often I longed to gather you under my wings as a hen gathers her chicks...but YOU would not. (willed not).
Believing is not something we can do our friend says, it is sovereignly and totally the act of God, gifting man that man without any will, may know salvation. Truly wonderful! God is not WILLing that any perish.
Man has absolutely nothing to do with it or it would NOT BE a gift.
Irresistible Grace mixed with absolute sovereignty which is NOT willing for any to perish... And ALL are saved!
Reminds me of that verse... For God so sovereigned the world that he gave his only son that God’s will allowed no provision for any to be lost or to resist acting in love and thus we all robotically do not perish but have eternal life.
I’m going to buy one of those, “No Worries!” T-shirts.
I didn’t realize that salvation had absolutely nothing to do with me because God’s will is that
NONE PERISH, and none can act against God either
because our total actions are a gift and have NOTHING to do with us at all!
Ain’t one-sided love awesome?
WE ALL WIN!

OBSERVER M
Well said! A gift has to be purposely received. I love your approach at making it so obvious.

OBSERVER N
ALL are NOT saved, there is and will continue to be, souls added to Hell. The concept of ALL saved is Universalism, and it is heretical. If, in the end, ALL are saved, then what is the purpose of the cross??

OBSERVER F
I was speaking fasciculus with someone. I agree with you.

OBSERVER N
OH, Thank God! I was worried you were a Hyper Calvinist/Universalist

OBSERVER F
Anti-Calvinist... For certain! Thank you for your concern and courage!

AUTHOR 1TP
There are in Scripture NINE ways of salvation:
(1) By faith: “Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved.”
(2) By calling on the name of the Lord: “And it shall be that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Acts 2: 21; Romans 10: 13).
(3) By baptism: “Who believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” “which also in antitype doth now save you-baptism” (1 Peter 3: 21).
(4) By confession: “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” (Romans 10: 9).
(5) By works: “Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.”
(6) By spiritual guides, teachers: “In doing this thou shalt save thyself and them that hear thee;” “I am become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some” (I Corinthians 9: 22). “And on some have mercy, who are in doubt; and save, snatching them out of the fire.” See also James 5: 20 and John 5: 16, already quoted before.
(7) By enduring to the end: “Who endureth to the end, the same shall be saved;” “The Gospel … by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast to the word which I preached to you” (I Corinthians 15: I, 2).
(8) By martyrdom, suffering in the flesh: “Whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the Gospel’s shall save it” (Mark 8: 35; Luke 9: Z4); “Who hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased unto sins” (I Peter 4: I); “Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin” (Hebrews I2: 4). In accordance with this the early church, the simple untheorizing church, held that only martyrs were deemed worthy to come immediately after death into the presence of their Lord; and were received at once in Paradise as a special reward.
(9) The woman, moreover, is saved in addition by the child-bearing, combined with endurance on her part and her husband’s: “She shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification, with sobriety” (I Timothy 2:15)

There are thus in Scripture not one way of salvation, of being saved, but nine ways. Seems to me that Repentance is NOT enough!

DISPUTANT
No one said it was enough. but no one is saved without repentance.

OBSERVER F
It just seems to me that you are making an argument to a hypothetical that no one but yourself is raising! If you think a woman comes to spiritual salvation by giving birth, you have not at all rightly divided that scripture. Continuing in faith love and sanctification with sobriety are the salvation end of such a proposition. Repentance is not... Sorry I broke your watch! It is sinful man acknowledging that God is holy and has provided a remedy through Jesus Christ for my miserable and sinful state. Repentance is an exchanged life. I trust Jesus’ resurrected life to be sufficient for my sin or there is no reason to repent. It is vital to the exchanged life.

AUTHOR 1TP
I posted the above in rebuttal to DISPUTANT who kept insisting that Repentance was required for salvation, when scripture seems to imply that much more is required. The fact is most people have not understood that salvation is a gift, and man has no part in his own salvation, including repentance.

DISPUTANT
Repentance is ONE essential part of salvation, not the only part. I never stated otherwise.

AUTHOR 1TP
So you are proposing that a person is NOT saved by simply repenting, but must perform other acts before God saves Him and gives him everlasting life!

OBSERVER F
If man has no part in his salvation, then we are all saved! “For God is not WILLing, will-ing for ANY to perish, but that ALL may have eternal life! If it is ALL ONE SIDED...
We are ALL saved!

OBSERVER G
Man’s only response to God to receive the salvation provided to that man and all men. Believe God’s promise, take Him at His Word.

Act 27:25, Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

“saved by the LORD”
Deu 33:29, Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

“saved by his life”
Rom 5:10, For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

“saved by hope”
Rom 8:24, For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

“saved by water.”???
1Pe 3:20, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

No, the water did not save them. Physically, it would be the Ark on the water. Reality shows it was Jesus Christ the LORD who saved them.

John 10:9, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The blood of Christ justifies / saves:
Rom 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

By “the gospel […] ye are saved”
1Co 15:1-2, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

“by grace are ye saved through faith “
Eph 2:5 & 8, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) […] 8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

“according to his mercy he saved us “
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These are all part of His name which tells us who He is and what He as both promised and performed.

AUTHOR 1TP
Of course God does not save ALL at all. You cannot get that thesis from scripture. Only a small portion of mankind will be saved. Most are lost, because that is what man chose in the Garden when Adam rebelled.

OBSERVER G
How many times has a man said “we will not” to God?

Luk 19:14, But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Jhn 5:40, And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jer 6:16, Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Luk 22:67, Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

Jer 6:17, Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

Jer 42:13, But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,

Jer 44:16, As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

Lev 26:14, But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;

Lev 26:18, And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Lev 26:23, And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;

Lev 26:27, And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;

Num 32:23, But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.

Deu 11:28,And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Jer 13:17, But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD’S flock is carried away captive.

Jer 17:27, But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Jer 22:5, But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

Jer 26:4, And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you,

Eze 20:39,
As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

The LORD preaches to all men everywhere of His righteousness and their own unrighteousness. God’s desired response by all man is to believe what He has shown unto them.

Rom 1:18-19, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

AUTHOR 1TP
Man is not in any position to even receive the gift. God is plucking the sinner out of the miry clay in which he is dying. He is up to his eyeballs in mud, and sinking further down. God reaches down and Plucks him up and places him on solid ground. Where in this scenario does man have anything to do with his own salvation?

OBSERVER F
By crying out!!!

AUTHOR 1TP
We can’t cry out, we are covered with mud- dead spiritually, DEAD. A dead man cannot cry out.

OBSERVER F
Good grief!!!

AUTHOR 1TP
A dead man cannot make decisions. We are spiritually DEAD. Truth can stand in front of us and we would not recognize Him.
Re:- Pilate

OBSERVER F
Being that we are completely dead in mud... And that God is unwilling for ANY TO PERISH, AWESOME WE ARE ALL SAVED AGAIN!!!

OBSERVER O
He is unwilling but you have free will to accept Him or reject him. No not all will be saved. He has mercy and wants people to come to him by faith.

AUTHOR 1TP
All cannot mean all in light of the rest of scripture. If all will be saved, then we should just go ahead and indulge in carnal pleasures, and shut down all churches and use the money on booze.

OBSERVER F
That’s the point. AUTHOR 1TP  You say, NOT a Thing Depends upon the actions of the one being saved. On the other hand you say that persons CAN act against God even though THAT is contrary to his will, in that God is Not Willing that ANY perish. Do you know that even when someone receives a gift, it is of no value unless the recipient chooses to use it? Thus even with a gift there is willful action on the part of the receiver or it is invalid.

OBSERVER G
The truth of God, His good news or gospel is revealed to all men so that all men can come at His call.

John 16:8 And when he [the Holy Spirit], is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.”
“There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. “

Ps 19:The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

In Creation, as referenced in Romans 1, the LORD by His Holy Spirit has declared to all men in all nations, tribes and tongues in all of time His law of righteousness.

The laws of nature and of nature’s God are understood by all men so that they (all men), go about making their own laws (like thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not steal and etc), in every society.

Rom 2: 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

In making these laws, knowing they originate with their Creator, (who is Jesus Christ), they also willingly break their own laws therefore condemning themselves before knowing also their coming judgment.

Rom 1:32, Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

AUTHOR 1TP
The truth is being preached, but WHO God chooses to save is His sovereign will, not ours.

Calvinism, Arminianism, Pelagianism, Wesleyanism, Finneyism, Lutheranism...
Original Post
I am a former Calvinist.
Any Calvinist who will dedicate the time to examine if these points are true will become a former Calvinist. The few Calvinists I’ve met who were familiar with pre-Augustinian orthodoxy will brazenly declare that everyone prior to Augustine was in error.
1. Determinism was widely known in the ancient world (Stoicism, Neo-Platonism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism). Augustine had been deeply shaped by Stoicism, Neo-Platonism and had been a Manichee for 10 years before his conversion.
2. No Christian theologian from A.D. 95-411 embraced determinism and many argued against it as a pagan, heretical perspective.
3. Augustine argued against determinism and for free will in his early writings (386-411) but in A.D. 412 reverted to the determinism to which he had been exposed in Stoic and neo-Platonic philosophy and his ten years as a Gnostic Manichee (he clearly lays out the factors that prompted this transition);
4. In his writing after 412 he began to use the Manichaean arguments for determinism which he had ferociously attacked from 386-411. When critics pointed out that he was now using the very Manichaean arguments he had once attacked, he responded with silence.
5. Luther and Calvin mistakenly believed that Augustine was reaffirming the determinism of Christian theologians before him when in reality he was introducing a pagan and, to that point at least, heretical construct into Christian theology (I suppose that one could argue that pagan philosophers and Gnostic and Manichaean heretics understood what no orthodox Christian did before Augustine in 412.. which is that God has structured reality along consistently monistic/deterministic lines).
The idiosyncratic concepts one finds in Calvinist arguments today are explicitly used by Stoics, Neo-Platonistists, Gnostics and Manichees:
1. ‘Free will’ and determinism are internally consistent (various expressions of compatibilism)
2. Complete ‘regeneration’ precedes any expression of faith.
3. God does not love everyone.
4. God is good even though he ordains and choreographs every expression of evil simply because God is good and cannot do evil (the implication being that God’s ‘goodness’ is wholly other than human goodness).
5. Election is understood as God’s unilateral selection of a subset of humanity for salvation such that it is impossible for any of the non-elect to respond to God in a salvific way.
6. Monism: God unilaterally writes the script of how all creaturely reality will be expressed.

1TP
1- We are created beings.
2- Created beings are contingent beings.
3- Contingent beings cannot have free will.
4- We are ignorant beings.
5- Being ignorant, we have no possible way of knowing what forces are driving us and our decisions.
6- We can think that we are free agents without being free agents.
7- Anyone who claims that they are free agents has been deceived by their own pride and ignorance.
The only time, in Eden, where we could choose for or against God, we rebelled.
Once we fell, our default destination is hell. We have become blind to truth. Jesus stood in front of Pilate and he still asked “What is truth?”
We cannot discover truth, which is knowledge of who is Jesus!
Only by the grace of God do the elect become chosen for everlasting life. Outside of that we always choose to sin and rebel against our Creator.
No human has ever chosen to believe in Jesus as Lord, never.

Dan B
You believe God doesn’t have the power to create creatures with freewill?

1TP
We are born without knowledge of Truth. Even in our sinless state, we were incapable of acquiring truth because Truth, which is salvific knowledge of God thru Jesus. Such knowledge is a gift of God.
So even if our daily choices were acts of free will, they have no eternal value.
Acquiring True salvific knowledge is not one of our possible choices. So of what value is having free will if we cannot choose believing in Jesus as Lord?
To answer you, I would respond with this question: Can God create another God?

Dan B
So does God have freewill?
We are made in His image, yes?
Isn’t freewill part of being in the image of God?
I don’t see how having freewill makes one a God.
Can you explain why you think that?
Why do you believe that for a being to have freewill, they would have to be a God?

1TP
The definition of Image of God does not contain having free will. Being the image of God means one thing only: having the potential to know eternal truth. It is a potential and not an actuality.
That potential is inherent in all humans, saved and unsaved, but is actualized only in the elect.
And being one of the elect is not our choice since we, on our own, cannot acquire eternal truth.
Free will would mean the ability to create other beings with free will. And we know that neither we nor our children can create other beings with free will.
We have been created with the potential to “create” physical beings, but the creation of their soul is out of our hands.
Only an omniscient being can be certain that they have free will. But we are far from being omniscient.
Here is my page on the definition of Image of God:
https://www.truth-defined.com/TheImageOfGodInMan.htm
Can God commit sin?

Dan B
Of course God can’t commit sin.
Do you believe this means God doesn’t have freewill?
Also, are you aware that you have an idiosyncratic theory of the meaning of “the image of God”?
Also, why do you believe that freewill means “having the ability to create other creatures with freewill”?
I’ve never heard that as a definition of freewill before.
Why do you believe that is freewill?
Also, if having freewill means “the ability to create other creatures with freewill,” then not even God has freewill, in your view, because you said earlier that God can’t create creatures with freewill.
So do you believe God doesn’t have freewill?

1TP
We better back up and have you define what is your definition of free will.
You have called my definition of the IoG idiosyncratic. I don’t know what you mean by that.
I have studied the definition of the IoG in great detail. If you have a better one, or if you can refute mine, I would love to hear it.

Dan B
By freewill, I mean “the ability to do otherwise, period,” the libertarian sense of freewill.
Can you tell me briefly mention (just name them perhaps) the other theories of the Image of God that you reject?

1TP
Please visit my webpage on the IoG. I list and critique several suggestions made over the Millenia. It is a long list.
The IoG is man’s God given potential to know Him as He knows Himself. Not even sinless angels can know Him as we can. Man was created to know God/Truth, because that gives us the greatest joy.
The IoG exists in all humans, saved and unsaved. It was not lost at the Fall.
The definition is addressed comprehensively.
I believe it is the first time in history that the IoG has been defined correctly.

Dan B
I am just having a conversation with you here.
I’m sure you’ve done the deep study you say you’ve done. If I can, I’ll check out what you’ve written on your page.
But I’d like to keep this just a simple conversation here, in this thread.
Do you believe God doesn’t have freewill?
I ask that because you defined freewill as “the ability to create creatures with freewill” and you said God can’t create creatures with freewill.

1TP
I will go with your definition of Free will.
Can God commit sin?

Dan B
Not every freewill choice has to do with sin.
I am not sinning if I choose a Big Mac over a Quarter Pounder w/cheese, and had I gone with the Quarter Pounder, it would not have been a sin.
I’ve already affirmed that God can’t do evil.
Do you believe God does not have libertarian freewill?
Do you believe that everything God does, He couldn’t have done otherwise than He did?
When you sin, do you claim you couldn’t have done otherwise than sin in that instance?
When you do evil, do you believe you couldn’t have resisted that temptation?
So you’ve never resisted temptation?
And whenever you sin, whenever you do evil, you believe you couldn’t have refrained from doing evil?
So when James tells us to “resist the devil,” you believe that’s not possible?
When you sin, do you claim you couldn’t have done otherwise than sin in that instance?
When you do evil, do you believe you couldn’t have resisted that temptation?

1TP
It is impossible for us NOT to sin. Just as it is impossible for God TO sin!
We cannot exercise our “free will” to refrain from committing sin.
According to your claim, we have free will, thus we should be able to refrain from committing sin.
Can we refrain from committing sin?
To be in sin or to commit sin is to fall short of perfection.
What perfect act can we commit while we occupy our “bodies of death”?